There was a healthy divergence of appreciation for the Rise and Fall of Christian Ireland by Crawford Gribben.
I believe that all found it a useful contribution to a broader discussion about the trajectory of the practice of Christianity in Ireland and a suitable overview – although with very mixed feelings around how skilfully or effectively the author was able to convey his thoughts.
As to the general readability, some found the prose somewhat turgid, overly dense, and less than approachable. It was possibly wrapped up in academic-speak and too dense to capture interest, even with the topic(s) being addressed. However, others found it one of the more approachable scholarly works they have read and caught and carried their interest throughout. So as a group – thankfully – we have divergent tastes – no revelation there, and the appreciably of the author’s style remains entirely subjective. There was no prior promise as to the intended audience, nor the approachability or level at which it was aimed, so no failure to deliver, simply a work that reflected the author’s voice and unabashed in that.
The overall structure – as Jim described – seemed to have worked for most and progressed through a logical chronology, although seemingly demonstrating some distracting repetition for some. Joe suggested that he found this a more positive aspect, highlighting the author’s ability to contextualise the presented material. The skillful layering of the argument made for an excellent presentation. Nonetheless, there was a comment on the seeming coupling of an ecclesiastical look at a defined period and then a return to the same trajectory from a politico-economic perspective plumbing the depths of power relationships which may have also contributed to a perceived repetition. Again this was an authorial decision as to the structure and was generally appreciated depending on the level of the reader’s familiarity with the material being introduced.
The arc of the weighted presentation of material lent some challenge as spending more time (in a less definite and more speculative fashion) in early periods pre-Christian – which presented a frustrating conjectural melange for Mike and Fergal. As the work moved forward, it became more fast-paced (and less thorough) towards modern times – perhaps assuming greater familiarity of the readership. Admittedly, some members, Ruari, enjoyed the greater detail from the pre-Christian and early Christian period, but here we go subjective.
The broader implications of Gribben’s conclusions around the depth of Irish attachment to true spirituality, as Brian M noted the unexpected nature of Christianity itself taking root and reformation religiosity not so much were considered somewhat unresolved. However, the overall value of the work as a survey course in the religious practice on the Island of Ireland was noted as well accomplished within such a small and compact 220 pages.
Jim’s outstanding questions remain outstanding but undoubtedly worthy of further discussion. Still, I would hazard to offer that as they were raised for him, the nature of the subject matter in this volume hits home on all readers’ personal experiences and colours the perception and appreciation of the nature of the subject matter being discussed.
Smaller niggles revealed the author’s opinions in less guarded moments but did not detract from the overall presentation.
Ultimately hopefully, most were glad for the read – although appreciating that it challenged some more than others and stylistic considerations that worked better for some than others. It raised some excellent questions and ultimately probably left more raised than answered but did provide for a great discussion tonight.
A solid 6.33 average score places it in the middle of the pack for this year amongst a wide variety of types and reads – quite respectable, I think.
I read into the record the two reviews submitted in advance not only as they were exceptionally well expressed, but to retain these for posterity:
“I found this a little dense and hard work to begin with, but either I got more used to his style or the author’s writing became more relaxed as he got into material with which he was more familiar. Consequently, it became more enjoyable with the occasional dry wit dropped in.
Structure is straightforwardly chronological, even if the chapters have more thematic titles, with the storyline (timeline) up front which pretty well covers the major topics dealt with.
It’s all well-referenced, but these neither feel intrusive nor over-done but actually give a flavour of what other researchers have been attracted to work on, which is interesting in itself. Likewise the level of explanation suited me well, being sufficient to expand on what I already knew (or thought I knew) without being over-much. Sufficient enough to send me
looking for a couple of clips on YouTube just to see what a lecture might be like.
I suppose the quibbles I do have are more related to what I expected from the book than from anything actually there, although I did think in some of the sections the author was trying too hard to be even-handed (PC influence or (un)conscious choice?). I also expected a somewhat more judgemental approach e.g. what did Ireland gain (or lose!) through
Christianity (or the way in which it was expressed/practised)? To what extent can the rise/fall or even the various themes be linked to oppression? Did I detect a hint that the Irish, as a race, are particularly religious?
A final thought is the place of education in all this (perhaps a strange lack given the author’s profession). Does this mirror the evolution/direction of Christianity in Ireland itself? From the mediaeval idea of knowledge acquisition to charitable/altruistic teaching of the hedge schools to the Aristotle/Xavier theory of indoctrination/control – where is it now and where
is it heading?
Would probably recommend this to anyone else interested in the subject, but it might be a bit of a dry read for the uncommitted.”
“First of all, it’s a very ambitious undertaking to try to condense 1,400 years of history into 220 pages and the book over all probably suffers from that attempt at condensing.
I found it interesting how Gribben makes a good case for how surprising it was that Christianity took root on so remote an island in the first place. It was done successfully by the proselytisers by mixing the old and the new and by how the new dispensation offered greater – temporal, not religious – opportunities.
How Ireland became an “island of saints and scholars” and contributed to the re-Christianising of Europe after the so-called Dark Ages is well set out. A good case is also made for how Christianity served as an integrating factor for successive waves of invaders (the Vikings and the Anglo-Normans) but the Reformation changed all that and the planters of the 17th century were not absorbed.
The bloody-soaked 17th century is dealt with at something of a fast pace and might prove difficult reading for those without some familiarity with the period’s history. The modern era is covered at an even more hectic pace and depth is certainly lacking here with uneven treatment of certain aspects.
I thought the section on the decline of Christian practice too one sided and the conclusion that “failure has marked the entire history of Christian Ireland” far too sweeping.”